[_] Mark Chitty and his continuing influence in perl and myspace discussions
steve at pepcross.com
Wed May 30 13:58:30 BST 2007
On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 08:14:01AM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote: > On 30/05/07, Steve Roome <steve at pepcross.com> wrote: > > OTOH, Aaron, WHAT*"*&!"£.?! Perl is "almost always the right tool for > > the job" ? You can't be serious! > > I said : > > "I find Perl to be rather elegant and powerful and almost always the > right tool for the job, of course the jobs I do tend to be in Perl's > sweet spot but contrary to popular myth it's actually very good at > things like large complex systems and scales nicely." Sorry, I'd meant to say something like "Subjective confirmation bias", but I am stuck on verbose output. > For most general computing tasks (say genome research, internet > applications, data processing, system integration) Perl is the right > tool, if you know it, equally Python would be the right tool if you > knew that well. And in almost all of these examples, at some point, SQL is the best tool (available) for the job, and you've never done anything like... #!/usr/pointless/wrappers/perl my $query="select * from users where user_name like 'steve%'"; > The reason Perl isn't hugely popular like C is that C has decades more > usage, and is taught at universities and colleges and has historically > provided more speed - of course there is little benefit in using just > C for a server, when you can leverage it when needed in Perl using XS > and SWIG (python and php provide similar ability), C++, Java and .Net > are also taught at universities and backed by a huge number of vendors > who make an awful lot of money selling tools to make them productive > enough to be useful. IME (limited of course) perl is vastly more popular than C, and just like popular science/fiction/folklore/singers/etc: popularity does not always indicate brilliance or fitness for purpose, let alone "best of breed". Newbie Perl programmers + TMTOWTDI + dumb beleif in perl = more contracts for me to fix broken, bad and unworkable perl code. Woo, cool! > All of which is beside the point because you're just looking for > another argument, there are few areas that Perl isn't suited (modulo > actually knowing it) - which is what you would expect of a modern > general purpose programming language, and unlike LISP it's actually > used in popular applications (rather than just emacs ;). Erm no, you came out in response to a post I'd made on the topic of myspace with a comment about how perl was the best tool for the job. To protect my name I replied, I now realise that I was a tool to bother replying the first time. Especially as you're just accusing me of being argumentative when I'm merely disagreeing with an absolutely ridiculous, stupendous and amazingly dumb claim you made that has more than just me thinking you're trolling. Except you keep backing it up, or digging. > Contrary to what you claim - everybody on the list using the internet > will almost certainly be affected by perl - whether it's a website > powered by perl, using a dictionary compiled with the aid of perl, a > news story about genome research utilising Perl (and C and other > things), their email being spam filtered, using google or yahoo or > livejournal, watching the BBC or ITN, or if they have a pension or > shares, or if they booking a plane or holiday or even actually flying. That is not contrary to what I claimed and it's going to really nark me if you try putting words into my mouth again. I'm actually trying to be polite here, it's hard work when I look at this. What I claimed is that in order to read these posts (something most underscore subscribers probably gave up doing long ago at merely the site of our names on the subject) most people will use almost no perl at all. For your claim that perl is almost always the best tool for the job to hold water I'd expect/like to see perhaps 50% or more of the software required for any task being written in perl. I stated that I think we'd see less than 5% or so, assuming of course we were able to accurately measure it. Furthermore as someone who's done a fair bit of flying I can tell you that I've never needed Perl to fly. I also worked for BA for a while where I was one of two support people running the entire booking system. We had some perl, and it was broken and didn't work. Google is mostly python isn't it, they don't like me anyway, I don't care! As to BBC, ITN and so on.... *sigh* You're backing it up with a few names of things, but again, no factual evidence (whereas I did actually calculate the exact %age of running Perl code on all the computers I used to pick up my email at that time - zero), I assumed that most of the network devices didn't run perl but I did check on a couple of them. Finally Aaron, by now I think we probably *both* appear to be just the arrogant twats on a mailing list looking for an argument. Not just me or you. We've all been here before and it's time for us to move on. I think you can probably join our little club of people who whether we know it or not, are the laughing stock of underscore, and filtered by most. Why I joined in, was because you and a bunch of other people jumped up and down in that pig-headed X is better than Y way, first about myspace and now you're doing it about Perl. The world is not black and white and I don't have time to argue the point and I think it's a little unfair to underscore to keep our terrible debating skills going round in circles. I don't think I've bought anything new to the discussion here really, and if you'd like to criticise any logical steps I've made someone else who cares can consider your reasoning and assess wether you have a good claim for perl being x,y or z. Someone who cares. In the meantime, "flash is pants", is still my mantra though I appreciate it can do some pretty cool things. Perl is pants too, and I feel very releived to finally admit it on underscore. I feel like I've come out the other side of rehab as new man now, fresh and clean. Everyone (*1) should have hugs. (*2) [It's better than sliced bread] Steve *1 : Those that want to, not really everyone. *2 : Haskell, or whatever else makes you happy.